Sunday, February 5, 2012

Pee Into This Cup

Degradation is good medicine for the poor. Welfare queens are living high on the hog. If they're going to be taking taxpayer money from Floridians in the form of public assistance the least they can do is take a drug test so we know they aren't using that money to get high. A Florida congressman is baffled that anyone would refuse. Who would refuse to take this test and see his family suffer?

The Daily Show agrees. And the governor is taking hundreds of thousands in taxpayer money, as is this baffled congressmen. You'd think they likewise would be more than happy to submit to a drug test. Wouldn't they? Watch to find out.


Chad said...

I really liked the idea that anyone entering a public park needs to show a clean screen - that is a great idea.

The only issue with this process is that they don't screen for alcohol and tabacco which they should also do.

Chad said...

They should also be required to log at minimum 20 hours community service per week, be in a job program or show that they are in school (minimum full time student) before getting their checks.

I also believe that the monthly reciepts should also be collected and evaluated as well - showing exactly where the money goes each month.

Jon said...

The bureaucracy required to check and verify all these items would likely cost a lot more than the money saved by denying benefits. Suppose a mother wanted to try and spend quality time with her kids rather than doing community service as you suggest. You have to have staff to check what she's up to. Why not just let her raise her kids?

Similar suggestions are made regarding Social Security and these are also a bad idea.

If you're really concerned about government waste why not talk about military spending or corporate welfare? That's a lot bigger than WIC. Also the idea that we should develop a huge bureaucracy to check in on these poor people all the time. That's major waste.

Sheldon said...

I did some research on this issue and found that one of the Federal district courts found this contrary to the 4th amendment protections against unwarranted searches and seizure and the ACLU will challenge the law on these grounds again.

Plus, studies have shown welfare recipients aren't any more likely to be drug users than the general population, contrary to stereotypes, thus the state would be wasting its money.

And Chad, I think that people on public assistance being granted access to education to be an excellent idea. But of course being poor they won't have the money to pay for it, so I guess you are for free higher and vocational education?

Chad said...

In order to live up to our obligations as parents, my wife and I get only 3 hours per night (maximum) with our children during the work week - where is our quality time Jon? Not only do we have far less quality time with our children we pay $25,000/year in daycare as well. Worrying about this mothers quality time with her children is a slap in the face of the earners that provide this mother her the resources that she can not provide her children.

The next question is - why does she have children? Is she having more children that we will have to pay for? What skill sets is she improving by not being required to "earn" her welfare money through community service? Is she magically going to be a productive member of society by sitting at home with children that she is teaching bad habits to already? If they are required to do 20 hours community service/volunteer work they may begin to develop desireable skill sets to help them get a job. At the very least they would begin networking with people who could hire her.

I could go on forever - there should be absolutely no free rides for anyone - ever.

Chad said...

Sheldon - couple points. I had to take a drug test before being employed - is that a violation of my 4th rights? Also they have a choice to not take the test - this is simply a pre-requirement to recieve the money that they have not earned. Last - the drug test is a very small scope - they should be tested for alcohol and tabacco use as well - must bigger issue.

Since politicians/people on both sides like to twist the Constitution to fit an arguement - I site that taking money from me for welfare violates my 13th admendment rights. We know the Welfare program is not supported in the Constitution, but so are thousands of programs - what is new.

"The Thirteenth Amendment makes involuntary servitude unlawful whether the compulsion is by a government or by a private person."

The government of the US takes money from me for welfare - enslaving my labor against my will. If I choose not to pay into that program I will be fined and eventually put in jail.

We can play that game all day unfortunately.

No freebies Sheldon - if someone on federal assistance wants to go back to school they will be required to pay for those services at some point and time. I would support an idea to allow anyone to go to school initially free of charge by signing an agreement to pay back the money when they are employed over time.

Jon said...

In order to live up to our obligations as parents, my wife and I get only 3 hours per night (maximum) with our children during the work week - where is our quality time Jon?

Freely choosing to see your kids less is one thing. If you stop working your wife makes enough that nobody goes hungry. Being compelled to see your kids less on pain of hunger is another.

Why does the welfare mother have children? The first acquantance that comes to my mind happens to have a husband that cheated on her, divorced her, then suddenly died to where all his potential child support went out the window. Mom has nothing. She wasn't working when he left her, so she doesn't have a lot of skills. She's doing daycare right now, making next to nothing. Three kids. Should she do community service like a criminal as well?

No free rides you say. This is what I keep trying to get you to see. What about your free ride? What about the schooling you got, the subsidized athletics? Farmers without children had to pay property taxes to pay for that. What about computers, the interstate highways, the internet, satellite communications? All the things you got. The people that call for no free rides are the ones that have already gotten a free ride and continue to get a free ride. They just don't want others to likewise get a free ride.

Chad said...

Unfortunately for you Jon is that whenever I find myself at the absolute opposite end of your views, it only reaffirms to me that I am on the right side of the argument. The only time - and it has not happened very often at all thank God - is when I find myself in agreement with you on a subject, those are the moments when I feel uneasy about my position.

You see I am positive sure that you hate America and if given the chance you would destroy her. Thankfully your not a leader and your beliefs as a whole would place you smack dab in the category of a radical so I think your blog is your only outlet. Many of the friends/colleagues that I send your topics and or replies too feel like your a prime candidate to be a member of some really bad groups of people.

I can see their point - you outline that you are an atheist, you are clearly a socialist, you reference in admiration the Islam faith and a hatred for the Christian faith. You despise the rich and hate people who work hard and earn. You absolutely want government to run our lives, but only from a Liberal/Progressive point of view. You despise Capitalism and hate the Constitution.

Pretty clear you hate America so when I find myself the target of your words I find myself feeling very at ease, but appreciate your concern for my well being.

Chad said...

"Freely choosing to see your kids less is one thing. If you stop working your wife makes enough that nobody goes hungry. Being compelled to see your kids less on pain of hunger is another."

This is an interesting statement - the rest of your post is a big whatever. You shared a story about a mother that falls in the 5% category.

But this statement is really intriguing - once again I find myself feeling really great about my position. When evaluating a life partner and future mother of my children, I had a list of requirements. Intelligent and book smart from a practical conservative sense - check - she has a Masters from Ohio State and 2 BA's from BGSU. Athletic - check - a 5'11" natural athlete. Good looking and a couple other things were on the list too that she met, but at the top of my list was that she had to have a work ethic that was equal too or greater than mine - BIG CHECK.

When I met my wife it was in a bar and she was the server for my softball team that was sponsored by her employer. Stay with me because this is a great story. So she is a waitress at a local dive that I saw every Wednesday - since I was the coach, captain and guy who paid the tab at the end of the night we began talking more and more. Eventually I learned that this was a woman who went through a divorce and was working 3 jobs to make ends meet. She worked at Spiegel/Eddie Bauer full time during the day, 3 nights at the bar and 2-3 nights at Petsmart running a cash register. Here is a women with a Masters degree willing to work 3 jobs - what a women. As I got to know her more, I found out her work ethic was incredible her whole life and I love that very much.

I tell that story because we both have children we are raising today and what will be most interesting is to see what our children become under our guidance. I have a theory about your situation and I suspect your wife's views are your views so we will have 2 entirely different family paths. I know that It will be decades until we find out the results, but I have to tell you my friend that we are planning on raising champions and leaders. Hard work, discipline, drive, that there are winners and losers, good vs evil, God is great and those who work the hardest have the most. My son is 5 and he knows today that there are rewards for getting high marks in class and on the sports field - he also knows that the reverse is true as well. Low marks and poor performances result in zero rewards. He is never scolded and we assert no additional pressure on him, but we simply reward excellence. As a result he is playing sports above his age and is advanced in his class. The same appears to be true with my 2 year old - first in the class to walk 7 months 23 days, first to talk, first to be potty trained - rewards for excellence.

Their mother is a Director at a Fortune 500 company and their father is on the verge of being named Vice President of the company he works for - our kids will understand expectation and value hard work - what I am saying is that they will be armed to succeed in America and the world.

The question I have is what are arming your children with? Hard work is evil? Earning money is evil? Being average or below average is acceptable? The group is more important than you regardless of your skills? That Christianity is wrong and that there is no God? Socialism is a good thing?

Good luck with that.

Jon said...

Unfortunately for you Jon is that whenever I find myself at the absolute opposite end of your views, it only reaffirms to me that I am on the right side of the argument.

How is that unfortunate for me?

You see I am positive sure that you hate America and if given the chance you would destroy her.

That's like saying that if you criticize your sons behavior and focus on the things your son does wrong rather than talking about the neighbor kid you must hate your son.

Think for a second about who we consider to be the heroes of the past. Like dissidents in the Soviet Union and China. Like Cubans that speak out. You know what they are called? Haters of the Soviet Union. Anti-Soviet.

The heroes are people like Jesus Christ and MLK Jr. Did Jesus criticize Rome or pagans? No. He focused laser like on those within his own community. Was Jesus an anti-Semite? Did he hate Israel?

That's true of Elijah, Elisha, Jeremiah, Zecheriah. The heroes of the bible are the ones that criticized the king. Not the ones that told him "what his itching ears want to hear."

At the time MLK Jr was considered anti-American. He was hated by those with power. It's only in retrospect that we see. It's those that challenge the existing authorities that are the real heroes. The villians are the ones that call the dissidents anti-German and anti-Soviet. What side do you want to be on?

So if people that think like me were being praised right now, then I'd think I was doing something wrong. The real heroes were despised in their lifetime. So I'm despised by you and your friends. I stand up for the weak. When a poor person is kicked in the head by the authorities I object. You don't care about that. Only illegal immigrants. How do you think history will judge you?

I hate the Christian faith? Is that why I wrote this recently?

I try not to bring my wife and children into online discussions, so I'll just make one point that is more generic. You don't know the future. You could never know if your spouse could change, cheat on your, and divorce you. You can never know what illnesses might effect your family. And so my point remains. There's a difference between a situation where working less so you can see your kids means hunger and a situation where it doesn't mean hunger.

I do not despise the rich. I do not hate the Constitution. I am totally happy for you that you are doing so well and I think it's right that you are doing so well because you work very hard.

Maybe this typed communication obscures that. If you get up to Michigan let's do dinner. Maybe then you'll understand me better. You can buy.

Chad said...

I would love to have dinner with you and your family - absolutely 100%. I am actually in Madison Heghts tonight and I am in this area about once a month. Send me a contact number through FB privately.

I'll say it again, I believe that your heart is true even if we don't agree. Some of the best compromises come with two opposites - unfortunately I am just a salesman and will never be in a position to make policy, I suspect you realize the same.

Apologies if I crossed a line with bringing in family stuff - it is never personal. In fact I consider you a friend. One of my best friends in this world is an Ohio State fan and a flat out racist pig - but I still consider him a friend. Part of what makes America great is challenging the stats quo - it is also what makes America weak - if that makes sense.

Touch base.

Jon said...

Damn. You still in town? I was off yesterday and out of town and couldn't get to a computer. In any case I'll send you a message on FB.

The family thing is fine, I'm not saying you crossed a line. I avoid it here for 2 reasons. First I have an internet history, so if I start talking family personal information it's probably possible for people to figure out who I'm talking about. Now these three individuals are exposed. They may not mind, or they may. Either way they didn't ask to be exposed and so I don't want to do it. People can figure out personal info about me, but that's the choice I make when I get involved in this sort of thing. That's not a choice my wife or kids have made.

That's different for you because this isn't your blog. You're known by your first name here. It's not easy for people to know who you are referring to. Maybe a super sleuth could figure it out, but generally no. I do discuss my family in other venues where I'm more anonymous. Usually not as part of a debate, but for other reasons, like maybe a health question. "My kid has an infection, what is the cause?" kind of thing.

The other reason is because I don't want the arguments I'm involved with to be about my personal situation. I could be rich, poor, middle class. My arguments need to stand or fall on the merits. So take your statement that I hate the rich. What if I am rich? As far as anybody is concerned here I could be rich or poor. The way I personally feel toward the rich in my view is a distraction from the argument. If I talk about my personal situation too much (and I know I've done some of that) people latch on to that and start focusing on it instead of looking at my arguments and claims.

If they do that I feel like I won't learn from my critics. That's why I'm here. To learn from people like you. That's why I listen to so much right wing radio. And I read a lot of right wing blogs. When I real leftists I want to have right wing criticisms in mind so that I can understand if the left is properly responding to the right. So if your argument is "You personally feel this or that way about the rich or poor because of this or that that happened to you" now, what info do I have that I can take with me and learn from? Nothing. So in the end here I just think I learn less when personal things are part of the discussion.